Tuesday, July 11, 2017

Roberto in the deniers' den.

Author: Sergey Romanov
This is a comment thread to discuss our Roberto's appearance at CODOH.

There is almost no doubt that he will eventually be censored, but for now let's have some fun and laugh at the silly deniers being destroyed by Roberto.


Sergey Romanov said...

Silly denier borjastick apparently believes in the denier hoax about the Red Cross numbers, posting the document and asking:


"I don't really know how you can claim there was never an official figure. Unless you want to throw everything we say into the frying pan that is."

Of course, the document doesn't show any death tolls and does not come from the Red Cross, the full debunking is at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/05/rebutting-twitter-denial-most-popular.html#redcrossstats

Also, he doesn't demonstrate how there can be an "official figure" for something like an Auschwitz death toll.

Sergey Romanov said...

The ever dumb Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis:


"[Roberto:] The figure I accept is slightly below one million.

Yet his very own Nyiszli said 6,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz."

And what does Nyiszli's alleged acceptance have to do with anything at all? IOW, who cares what death toll Nyiszli accepted?

"There was no problem in getting Hoess to say whatever the 'Allies wanted, torture works like a charm."

Of course, dumb Jonnie never proves Hoess was tortured by the Poles, and does not explain why, if he was tortured, he lowered the death toll of 4m accepted by the Commies to about 1 million.

He then claims: "The 'Hydrokop Report' is a fraud."

Since the Hydrokop report is real, we know that Jonnie is a liar (but we knew that already).

Low-IQ Jonnie then posts this: "Roberto is grossly 'uninformed'." - never explaining what Roberto is supposed to be misinformed about. He then cites a denier list of alleged Auschwitz death tolls.

But the very first entry in the list is a denier hoax! To wit:

"9,000,000 Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide."

Here is the script:


Here is the film:


It obviously tells about the concentration camp system as a whole (using footage from Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, Struthof, Mathausen, Buchenwald) so the 9 million number refers to the whole, not to Auschwitz.

Deniers just can't stop lying.

Sergey Romanov said...

This thread is a hoot. Roberto challenged the chimps to name a single name of the millions allegedly transferred to the Russian East through Treblinka etc. (we know of course that it never happened because there is not a trace of those Jews at the alleged point of destination).


Instead Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis points to the debunked articles by Kues:


And then, predictably, regurgitates the debunked Rothstein canard:


Hektor, not known for high intellect either, posts a bunch of names but forgets the little word in Roberto's challenge: "proof".

Some other chimp brings up Karski, who, however, never was in Belzec, as we know now.

Sergey Romanov said...

So still not a single name of a transited Jew.

Sergey Romanov said...

In https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11231 after Roberto easily answers Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis' silly challenge, the intellectually challenged borjastick (who believes in the Red Cross hoax, see above) writes:

"Roberto shows clearly why debating with him and his ilk is a waste of time. For people to be apparently well educated and of a decent IQ and then display zero critical thinking renders this whole escapade a waste of time. Anyone with a modicum of intellectual process and clear rational thought, and Roberto claims to not be a Zionist or supporter of jews, couldn't possibly accept the holocaust story as claimed. It's simply not possible. Therefore we are once again trying to push water uphill."

IOW borjastick doesn't have any facts and evidence to refute Roberto, only a statement of faith. Denial is a religion after all.

Sergey Romanov said...


Here the dumb Jonnie claims that Katyn excavations/publication by the Germans were exemplary and proved something. Actually the so-called expert report (contained in the German book) was written by a non-neutral group (most of the experts were from the German-occupied territories; and those that were not - like the Swiss - knew about the possible danger of a future occupation). The only evidence in the report that was approaching credible by itself was that the latest dates of newspapers, letters, documents on the bodies were in the spring of 1940. Of course you have to trust the experts/those who did the excavations in the first place to accept this as evidence. The information from the corpses themselves did not yield any useful info (some of the experts thought that it did, proposing to be able to date the dates of the killings from certain changes in the skulls - but we now know the method was not scientifically credible).

It was only later that it was actually proven that the Soviets shots the Poles. The German report by itself did no such thing.

It's not that this report in itself is bad or anything. It's just that it's no worse or better than the Soviet Extraordinary Commission reports.

The main and conclusive arguments for the Soviets shooting the Poles is that the Poles do not figure in the internal Soviet documentation starting with the spring of 1940; that the shooting order exists; and that newer exhumations were done proving the Soviet guilt.

Of course, they are conclusive for normal, sane people, but they cannot be conclusive for the deniers. Deniers routinely dismiss the Holocaust documents as fakes, so it's hard to see on what grounds they would accept the shooting order as authentic. The new exhumations were done by Andrzej Kola, who also did the exhumations at the Nazi extermination camps, which are dismissed by the deniers, so why would the deniers accept Kola's other stuff?

And the first argument - about the Poles vanishing from the Soviet bureaucracy - mirrors the "where did they go" argument in regard to the Holocaust. Since this argument is also dismissed by the insane chimps, all they have to go on is the German excavation report which doesn't really prove anything (by itself).

Gabi said...

I wonder when they would pull out their "Roberto is the son of an SS officer and he also uses drugs" BS again.

J Kelly said...

CODOH won't let me on. Kinda sucks.

Gilles Karmasyn said...

The 9 million gambit in Night and Fog is a pure invention by Faurisson from the beggining of the 1990s, that I have fully debunked in 2002 (in french), here: http://www.phdn.org/negation/faurisson/nuitetbrouillard.html

I must underline that the famous "decreasing" list of AUschwitz death tolls (that is presented in the codoh thread) is also a Faurisson manipulation (most figures are NOT from historians' studies and have no historical value, they are displayed not in chronological order but in decreasing order in order in order to give the reader the feeling that no serious toll was ever given and that it always went down, sources are willingly given in evasive ways in order to make any verification difficult, if not impossible). The list has evolved and been modified, enriched with time, but it's a big fraud.

For example, the 8 and 7 million figure stem from the same book, authored by Eugene Aroneanu who, in 1945 gathered in the heat of the war's end some data and testimonies in a simple, not scholar at all, way: Camps de concentration (Office français d'édition, 1945). Aroneanu purports to cite an official report from the O.R.C.G (Office de recherches des crimes de guerre) for the 8 million figure, but that report is nowhere to be found and that figure has never been used by anyone else anywhere else. So NO, it's not the "French War Crime Research Office, doc 31", as the Faurisson's list says, that gives that figure, it's Aroneanu, allegedly from a source that nobody has ever been able to check. The post continues with the 7 million figure also attributed to the "French War Crime Research Office". That's a lie. It's again taken from Eugene Aroneanu's little book. It stems from a witness, Raphaël Feigelson, who is mentionned only once, only there to say that "according to Raphaël Feigelson there were 7 millions victims". So of course, this figure is NOT from the "French War Crime Research Office". In both case deniers fail to cite the proper source (Aroneanu) and do not provide any way to verify (but I did, morons!)

I can't go into each figure here.

To my knowledge the six millions figure is NOT in Nyiszli's book (there is the classical 4 million figure though).

The 5 million figure from Le Monde in 1978 is mentionned in a small insert in an article about the 35th birthday of the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Auschwitz is not even the subject of that insert, the figure is juste given in a sentence without source. It's fast bad journalism and has absolutely NO signification or impact in a real Auschwitz death toll historiography. More than that: the alleged "1,433,00" figure from french newpaper Le Monde in 1989 is a lie. Le Monde never wrote there were 1,433,00 vcitims in Auschwitz. I checked, morons.

In fact it's easy to see that NONE of the figures above 4 million has any signification or impact. They were never uttered by historians, never used by historians, even never used at all anywhere else, outside the source it's taken from (when it's not a plain falsification, as with the 9 million in night and fog, by Faurisson).

Figures taken from survivors have of course not much value since they were not in position to know precise numbers, only to guess the scale of the murder. In fact if you take out, witnesses, journalists, non historian figures, what emerges is a very unsurprising distribution between one an two million (with anomalies that are well known and studied from Pressac, Meyer, and the infamous 4 million).

Very interestingly, the deniers who love Hoess fail to mention his main, most important, most valuable evaluation of the Auschwitz death toll, the one he wrote in his memoirs (from 1946!): 1,13 million.

Deniers are a bunch of incompetent falsifiers and hypocrites.

Gilles Karmasyn said...

Addenda: the 6 millions attributed to Nyiszli is in fact due to his translator (to french) Tibère Kremer, who wrote (without source or even qualification) this number in a preface to the first appearance of Nyiszli's story in french in 1951, in the french periodical, Les Temps Modernes («S.S. Obersturmführer Docteur Mengele. Journal d'un médecin déporté au crématorium d'Auschwitz», Les Temps Modernes, mars 1951, no 65). This number disappears from the first edition as a book, in 1961 (Médecin à Auschwitz: souvenirs d'un médecin déporté, Juillard), even though Kremer provides a preface to that edition as well. Kremer, though he was in the french resistance, had no particular quality to estimate a death toll for Auschwitz. So this figure is like most of the others in the list: it has no significance within the Auschwitz historiography, no impact at all and Nyiszli should of course not be held responsible for it.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Hi everybody,
Thank you for your comments and the valuable input you have provided.
Unfortunately I haven’t yet been able to stir up the Cesspit as I would like to because the moderator (guess who) turned on the memory hole machine right away (see the RODOH thread Yet another CODOH Memory Hole Festival, especially my reply to Hannover Lily here). The best I think I have achieved so far was spoiling Hannover’s "Auschwitz ash pond" act by pointing out the both Nyiszli and Höss mentioned disposal of cremation remains into the Vistula. Hannover retaliated by demanding that I produce the 1965 Hydrokop report alleging that it was fraudulent or didn’t exist, to which I responded to proving fraudulence was his business, whereupon my post was disapproved, whereupon I rewrote it stating that I would try to obtain the report from the Auschwitz Museum, whereupon my post was disapproved again – apparently I was supposed to produce on the fly a document that is not in the public domain let alone available on the internet.
However, and although my CODOH posting time is limited (as access to the Cesspit is blocked by my company network, I have to post from home either throughout the morning on weekdays, which will upset even my very patient boss sooner or later, or in the evening and on weekdays, which even my very patient wife will resent), I intend to continue giving Hannover & Co. some trouble. Next by responding to Hannover’s "AB challenge" BS. Input is welcome, especially regarding the air photo stuff.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

I don't mind the Katyn eulogy due to what it implies: if Katyn-style investigation is what it takes to prove mass murder, then Stalin's regime has no more than about 13,500 proven murders (Katyn + Vinnitsa) on its hands, instead of millions, which makes "Hannover" a "Revisionist" on behalf of Stalin as well. I pointed that out in one post which, guess what, never saw the light of day (reproduced here; Hannover’s pretext for disapproving it was "The reported message is off topic. not 'holocaust' related, irrelevant").

In another disapproval the idiot claimed that Blogger and this blog site were "illegal or pirated software"

And so on.

Roberto Muehlenkamp said...

Particularly hilarious is the case one post that was initially approved and then, after I pointed out on RODOH that it contained a reference to a previous disapproved post (which Hannover Lily read, of course), was deleted along with all moderation traces of its prior approval. Reproduced here.

Since then I take screenshots not only of posts about to be sent, but also of the notifications list. And I better start taking screenshots of approved posts as well, lest the asshole changes his mind and deletes them.

Sergey Romanov said...

The censorship of your posts was only to be expected under Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis' moderation. The "man" cannot bear his own ass handed to him.

Now, every forum is free to moderate as it sees fit (we sometimes moderate with an iron fist here because this is not, primarily, a discussion forum). But a forum allegedly striving for an "open debate" on the Holocaust is being hypocritical.

Sergey Romanov said...

The imbecile Borjastick tries to mask his embarrassment with sarcasm:


Don't fret, Borjastick, you only write under a pseudonym so no one can sniff out that you fell for the stupidest denier hoax - the "Red Cross stats" one. No person who accepts this hoax claim can claim to be intelligent in any way. Mein Beileid.

Jeff said...

I've taken a look - it's fucking amature hour over there. These folks are stuck on paleoneolithic denier memes that git debunked in the Nizkor years. Borjastick just earned a spot in my "Dumbest Deniers of All Time" list at SSF.

Bobby Staller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nathan said...

-For God's sake, what kind of adult insults other people for making statements on the internet? -
Codoh, apparently. They keep insulting Roberto in the absence of actual rebuttals to his criticism. They also block him because they know they have nothing.

- If you assholes want to debunk the people on CODOH, -
That's what Roberto's doing. And the Codoh clowns have nothing in response. Neither do you.

-they're not the ones who keep making abusive posts on a blog.-
They do, actually.

Bobby Staller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nathan said...

- when the revisionists have not even been doing so- Bobby has clearly never heard of either Eric Cunt, or Friedrich Berg. Nor has he heard of The Abuse the Codoh crowd heaped on David Irving whrn the latter dared turn his back on Deniers, or the abuse heaped by Jurgen Graf on Christian Lindtner when he dared do the same. Bobby is either ignorant, or dishonest.

- If what somebody posts online or in a book is silly, then simply prove it.-
Roberto, Sergey and Giles have done a good job of proving it on this thread. And this is poor Bobby's second post, and he still has nothing in response to their statements or criticisms, instead choosing to whine about "tone". Poor snowflake needs his safe space.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé said...

Gilles Karmasyn said:

The 9 million gambit in Night and Fog is a pure invention by Faurisson from the beggining of the 1990s, that I have fully debunked in 2002 (in french), here: http://www.phdn.org/negation/faurisson/nuitetbrouillard.htm

"Quiconque regarde le film comprend que le paysage dont il est question — qui n’est ni nommé ni identifié — vaut symboliquement pour tout le système concentrationnaire, selon un mode naratif maintes fois employé dans le film et que souligne la désignation de ce paysage comme «observatoire»."

That's not what the Frenchman Prof. Jean-François Forges believes it means. In his award-winning 1997 book on educating children about the Holocaust, Forges agrees with Faurisson's take on it, although Forges just blames the narrator:

"Mais on retombe encore, avec Nuit et Brouillard, sur le problème du nombre des victimes. Sur des images de Birkenau, le commentaire annonce que « neuf millions de morts hantent ce paysage.» Si le nombre des victimes d'Auschwitz est aujourd'hui estimé à environ un million, en 1955, le nombre admis était de quatre millions. À quoi a bien pu penser Jean Cayrol pour ajouter aussi légèrement 5 millions à un nombre déjà effroyable. Quel fut le sens de toutes les exagérations à propos d'Auschwitz? Multiplier sans aucun document historique les millions de morts, ce fut une irresponsabilité macabre. Ceux qui veulent maintenir la mémoire le savent aujourd'hui. Et qu'on n'ait pas l'inconscience de dire qu'après tout 1, 4 ou 9 millions de morts, peu importe puisque le problème est celui d'avoir tué en fonction seulement de l'origine de la victime. Ce sont des raisonnements abstraits insupportables. Un million de morts c'est un bien concret et hallucinant cortège, une somme monstrueuse de souffrances. Il n'est pas permis de parler sans réfléchir de morts par millions, en particulier maintenant, après le travail des historiens."

- Jean-François Forges, Éduquer contre Auschwitz, 1997, p.48 [the book was the joint-winner of the 1997 Jacob Buchman Prize for the Memory of the Holocaust, a prize given by the French Judaism Foundation].

The French repeatedly outdid the Soviets in terms of exaggerating the death toll of Auschwitz and other camps:

On January 29, 1946, Charles Dubost, a French Deputy Chief Prosecutor at the big Nuremberg trial, read from document RF-140:

"The first page of Document Number F-140 states—and I quote so as not to have to return to it again—in the fourth paragraph which deals with Auschwitz: 'About seven million persons died in this camp.'"

In France during 1955, anyone who claimed *only* 9 million *in total* were killed in Hitler's camps would have been considered a negationist. In the immediate aftermath of the war French War Crimes investigators had insisted that over 26 million people had been killed in the camps.

Sergey Romanov said...

Forges is clearly not very bright since the number refers to the camp system as a whole. The film was not about Auschwitz so it made zero sense to give the death toll for Auschwitz at the end.

The historical advisers for the film believed in much lower figures.

And Resnais himself confirmed that the 9m figure referred to the whole.